He seemed like a nice doper at the time

June 9, 2017 § 97 Comments

I wish I didn’t care about all the doping in SoCal masters racing, but I do. With regard to races that I actually enter, I can put it out of my mind thanks to the advice of a fellow leaky prostate masters profamateur, who wisely said this: “If you can’t race your bike without wondering who’s on drugs, this isn’t the sport for you.”

The team of Kayle LeoGrande, the guy whose doping shenanigans arguably opened the door for the fall of the House of Lance by going after immortal badass Suzanne Sonye, Kayle LeoGrande, the freakshop who “won” a national crit title from Steve Tilford in 2012 and later zoomed to a masters crit title amid shouts of “Boo!” and “Doper!”, announced yesterday that Kayle was leaving the team due to [insert surprisey-face emoticon] a USADA doping test result.

Screenshot (5)

Kayle got busted again? Hard to say for sure because shortly after their Facebag page blew up, the team deleted all the comments and even the team page. A quick check of USADA’s sanctions page shows no positive test results for the esteemed Mr. LeoGrande. Hopefully it was all just a mistake and he’s been reinstated with his national champion’s clothing, pro bike & wheels, and his customary cheering section.

But if it’s true, well, too bad, so sad.

When Kayle joined up with Team Surf City Cyclery there was a lot of outcry, but not from me, as the team voted to “give him a second chance” and added him to the roster. I thought then and still do that after you’ve served your time you should be allowed to race. That’s what the rules provide for, and masters doping isn’t first degree murder. Whether I’d want this unrepentant cheater on my team is another story. But if those guys on Team Surf City wanted to throw in their lot with a doper thug, that was on them. Now every single rider in that outfit gets to explain how they’re clean and it was only Kayle and no one had any idea and blah, blah, blah. As my grandpa used to say, if you lie down with pigs you’re going to smell like shit.

My problem is that I really do want to support bike racing and see it thrive, but at the same time I’m repulsed by the cheats. Whether it’s Thorfinn Sassquatch or Richard Meeker or now Kayle LeoGrande, these clowns make it such an uphill battle. Ironically, they don’t make it difficult for me; I’ve known about doping in the amateur ranks since I was offered my first syringe in 1986. But they make it so hard for me to recommend the sport, to encourage others to participate in it, and to back it financially.

And can anyone really be surprised that there is doping among — gasp — SoCal masters racers? After all, Kayle wasn’t simply busted for doping back in 2008. The arbitration panel’s careful legal language suggested that they found him to be a thoroughly unconvincing, pathetic liar. Check out these choice bits from the ruling in 2008:

  • He [Leogrande] misrepresented his use of an inhaler by initially calling it a puffer. When realizing the inconsistency with the doping control forms, he then went on to claim he had no idea of the contents of the inhaler, but trusted the doctor who had prescribed it.
  • Respondent [Leogrande] had numerous communications with Joe Papp during the one year period from July 2006 to July 2007. Respondent testified that Papp stored EPO at his home, thus it is very certain that he was in a position to have knowledge of EPO and the ability to obtain it. This close relationship with Papp, combined with the UPS note card, which does appear to be a receipt for E. (EPO) and G. (Human Growth Hormone) addressed to “Joe”, and which was signed by “Kayle”, which Leogrande denies was his signature, calls his credibility into question. For Respondent to disavow any knowledge of this card is unconvincing. The signature, in addition to being that of his unusual first name, looks to this Panel, to include the same script features as Respondent’s distinctive signature on the doping control forms.
  • Respondent’s [Leogrande’s] lack of denial or outrage when he spoke to Andreu, under either Respondent’s or Andreu’s version of the telephone call, is persuasive of his having used the Prohibited Substances (EPO, albuterol and testosterone) he was being punished for/accused of taking in that conversation.
  • Respondent [Leogrande] did not recall important events and conversations when it would have been very helpful for him to do so. Thus, he had no credible explanation for the conversations recalled clearly by Sonye and Andreu.

Whatever you pretend to be, don’t pretend to be surprised that a lying doper who was busted in 2008 might have returned to the sport and continued to lie and dope, and don’t be surprised as you read through the 2008 decision that the same ill thought processes might still be alive and well in the mind of this truly disturbed dude. This is a guy who lied, cheated, admitted to using banned drugs, and then had the nerve to sue for defamation the very person to whom he’d made the confession.

This isn’t some poor slob who was choking down tainted meat, or some up-and-coming kid who chose the needle over an unemployment line, it was a deliberate, calculating, corrupt liar whose first line of defense was to wreck the lives of those who dared tell the truth. On the bright side, it’s awesome to note in the arbitration decision against Kayle in 2008, that in Paragraph 65 it says that despite the fact that Suzanne Sonye had everything to lose by going against this doping doper who dopes, nevertheless she persisted.”

Hahahahahaha! Warren & Sonye in ’20!

And of course those who doubted that it was a new, improved, Kleen Kayle needed to look no farther than the famous Visalia punch-em-up, where Kayle exhibited violent behavior that looked less like a mature man and more like someone mentally overcooked on the fumes of ‘roid rage. With an apology and a bit of contrition his team let bygones be bygones. “Let Kayle be Kayle” they said, or some other such flibberflabber which everyone else interpreted as teamspeak for “STFU, dude wins races so IDGAF.”

But anyway, here’s what I know about watching Kayle race as a “reformed” ex-doper masters racer who was “given a second chance”: He was really good and one of the fastest in a crit but he wasn’t all that great. Because so many people dope now, there aren’t enough drugs in China for a saggy old fart like Kayle such that it will put him orders of magnitude above the drug-addled grandpa peloton. He won, but so did others. The Pollyannas pointed to that as evidence of a Kleen Kayle and a level playing field, but there’s a much worse explanation, which is that doping is now the norm because it has dripped down through the I.V. to the very lowest, contemptible, and delusional level of the sport: Middling masters racers.

How do I know? Because I’ve sat in a field as recently as this year and watched Kayle singe the nuthairs off of a 60-strong peloton, only to get brought back again and again and again. In the last race we did together I wound up off the front late in the race with him and it was like sitting behind a Ducati. “Just hold on,” he said as I bent over the bars trying to get small and looking like a giraffe on a barstool while he generated some impossible wattage, but not impossible enough that the peloton didn’t peg him back.

I slunk to the back, charred to the bone by my three-minute effort of sitting on, while Kayle took a breath, attacked again with two laps to go, and soloed for the win. Just another SoCal Sunday crit, dude.

And how doped was the peloton at Dana Point Grand Prix, where Kayle won his (hopefully) last race ever? According to one friend, it was the fastest race he’d done his entire life. To me this was just more evidence of what I’ve maintained for years: Doping in masters racing isn’t necessarily predominant at the top, but it’s absolutely predominant in the middle.

Nor is this bizarre level of speed and strength limited to the “young” masters racers. I’ve personally witnessed one old hack go from backass straggler to on-the-point hammerhead in a single season with no visible change at all to his physiognomy. I guess he just woke up in January and decided he would pedal harder than he had been for the last five years.

It’s the mid-level hacker with a zero percentage risk of getting caught who turns these mass-crit fields into NASCAR, because so many guys now are good for at least one 1200-watt effort, and where even if you’re doing drugs for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, it’s still not enough to reliably seal the deal as Meeker used to do almost every single time regardless of whether it was a hilly road race, a crit, a time trail, a sprunt … a whatever. USADA and USAC, far from having frightened masters racers into clean racing, have to reckon instead with the tidal wave reality that every year the dopers increase even as the number of racers evaporates.

And who’s quitting? The clean ones. There is a handful of also-rans on the SoCal masters circuit, guys who do everything right and who have all the right physiology, who can’t seem to close the deal on the big day because no matter how hard they train, you can’t out-train chemistry. And what about the ones who have no chance of winning and, more and more, who no longer have a faint chance of even finishing? Who remains under conditions like that? I’ll tell you who: The pathetic old meatbags like Dopey McDopester who are willing to pay good money to chase a tainted result, and the pack fodder frauds who lie to themselves that their testosterone and anti-aging supplements aren’t for bike racing but for their personal health needs.

Like Richard Meeker, this reprehensible SoCal crit cheat will go away and discover hiking, open a juice bar, devote more time to his family, find some part of his glory hole that hasn’t been inked, or *MAYBE* become a USAC-licensed coach for the seven juniors left in the state of California. Maybe he’ll even man up like Levi and start a famous grand fondue, or really serve the public like Jonathan Vaughters and start his own professional race team. But what he will not have left in his wake is destruction, ruined dreams, or shattered lives.

Because at this late stage in the autopsy if you still think it’s a clean sport with only the occasional random cheat, you’re almost as deluded as the cheaters.



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§ 97 Responses to He seemed like a nice doper at the time

  • Bob Smith says:

    I don’t get it. After all, isn’t it all just exercise? I mean, are any of us making a living riding a bike?

  • Toronto says:

    Have not seen any evidence of doping in yoga…..yet.

  • Dogg says:

    Don’t fret about their shot down facebag page, homie. Tattooed Love boy in plenty of pics with smiling faces and podium hugs on SCCCYCLINGTEAM Instagram page.

    • fsethd says:

      Time to scrub ol’ Tatty-Poo from the Internet. We’ll see how that works out.

  • Greg Kogut says:

    There are hopefully more statements coming from SCC. This guy changed the complexion of just about every crit he was in over the past few years, to immense benefit of some of his teammates. Also, SCC isn’t the only masters team he was on.

    • fsethd says:

      If SCC has any sense at all they will follow the old Russian proverb: “In difficult times, shut up. And when those times have passed, shut up some more.”

  • I regret ever having talked to that asswipe. The sport you love and hate.

    • fsethd says:

      So many like him, they just don’t win.

      • I guess I’m better than I thought. These kinds of stories just kill any progress for sport and give a bad rep to anyone in matching spandex.

        • fsethd says:

          What they do is continually shrink the pool. Why would anyone get into racing knowing not only that the superstar is juiced, but so is the pack fill?

          If you want to fake race with meaningless results against completely unreal people, you can do it with Zwift, Strava, grand fondues, group rides, whatever. The only reason there used to be to race was its legitimacy.

  • Joe C says:

    How cool would it be if USAC showed up at a big race and tested everyone?

    • fsethd says:

      I never thought I’d say that I pitied USAC, but I do. They are victims of a societal change in which people medicate for everything, all the time. By rigorously testing their customers they scare off a few cheats but disincentivize clean racers. Seriously, after this mess there will be another big dropoff in racing and SCNCA membership.

      People use drugs for everything now, all the time. The entire state of Ohio was recently declared a “Sobriety Free Zone.”

      Tatty-Poo isn’t the cause of anything. He’s a poster, er, tatt, for the problem.

      • B Miller says:

        Cheating isn’t new. Effective drugs and easy access to them are. I have zero pity for USAC. Like MLB, USAC turned a blind eye to and profiited from the pro dopers. The result, doping trickled down to the amateur ranks.

        Pro cycling is a niche sport. “Niche” is French for no one cares about it. Amateur bike racing? Less than niche. So what is the necessarily pathetic reason that do any of us do it? Were a bunch fragile egos looking for some sort of confirmation that were not old. The truth is that we are old. And were fast, not really. Just watch a video of a masters race. They always seem to me to play at half speed.

        Before it was removed I read the SCC post about Kayle and smugly smiled when I got to the part about the racers signing contracts. I thought what a bunch of douches to associate with a cheat like that and pretend thst you can magically wash the smell of him off just by cutting him.

        I’m not so smug now. See the thing is when I slipped into my kit this morning I noticed something, a faint barnyard odor. Turns out that when you race with people covered in pig shit, there’s no way to stop some of it from getting on you.

        If only there was something I could take to get rid of the smell.

        • fsethd says:

          You’re right, mostly, but I disagree that doping trickled down because of anything that USAC did or didn’t do. Super aggressive anti-doping might have slowed the trickle, but drugs travel downhill, like water, to the lowest levels of sport and life.

          That’s how the world is. Look at the state of the State of Ohio; the world’s worst opioid epidemic since Britain’s destruction of China through the opium trade. Why? Because society is habituated to medicine and pharma/manufacturing have figured out a great way to get a powerful product to people whose lives are sufficiently fucked up that being high on opium seems like a legit alternative.

          You are right about why a lot of people race, but not all. I got no delusions about age or speed; my race results are posted right here, as best I can remember, since 1984. There’s nothing fast in them.

          But people do race for the ego boost that comes from competition. Some egos are more fragile than others, that’s all. Dopey McDopester’s was so weak that the only way he could face not winning was to cheat.

          The end of bike racing isn’t at the feet of USAC, it’s at the feet of too much competition. Strava, Fondues, Zwift … how can small, tough, delusion-busting events held in parking lots compete with that?

    • channel_zero says:

      Here’s the problem. USAC really doesn’t care. They are focused on their pay-to-play schemes and other sordid corruption and therefore attract the same.

      I’m not saying anyone/everyone involved in USAC is corrupt. Not at all. In fact, SCNCA recently got some very overdue new blood that hopefully are able to improve things locally. I don’t have much hope for broader reforms outside the region , but, I hope they make some progress.

      Thom Wiesel still runs the federation and has no interest in operating a transparent, Democratic organization despite many very well intentioned people much further down the org.

      • fsethd says:

        I don’t think that’s “the” problem. It’s a problem but a minor one. The “problem” isn’t even a problem. People use drugs to fix stuff from the second they get up to the minute they go to bed. If it will fix a blemish why not fix a slow sprunt?

        Drugs are everywhere, all the time. You can’t lay that at USAC’s feet.

  • Michelle landes says:

    Giraffe on a barstool ba ha haaaa 😂 This man needs these wins to feel whole wow what a shame for the others that line up with hopes and dreams stupid !!

  • Joe Camacho says:

    Wait? Doping in “beer league cycling”? Say it isn’t so! [devastated]

  • tonymanzilla says:

    there’s no dope strong enough to win a wanky, and anyone in the know, understands that’s the only thing that really matters in the socal scene. my horseshoe is the only trophy proudly displayed in my house.

  • e-RICHIE says:

    That’s Gold, Jerry.

  • Mike Morrill says:

    Dude is a tool and once again brilliant writing.

  • Dawn Richardson says:

    So lame. Even the non-doped masters are lame, skipping out on their own kids’ games and meets to do this crap ad nauseam. Sad pathetic egos.

  • Christian Hesch says:

    Well written, Wanky. One of the key reasons you’ll never see me racing for money, places, prizes, etc is because of my own doping. I forfeited that privilege (yes, it’s very much a privilege) long ago, the only privilege left is to challenge kids to avoid my f***ups…and apparently I should be targeting middle aged adult males as well. Unfortunately I don’t think the audience would be as receptive as pubescent male Pre-wannabe.

    Truly sad that there’s not enough societal pressure to ensure KG was never allowed back in the pack in the first place. One of those societal problems you mention is the acceptance of medicating/doping. People just go “oh well, *somebody* will take him on their team, so it may as well be us.” Well, if NOBODY would take him on their team, perhaps he could have just stayed in his parlor and stuck to needling gloryholes…hmm.

    Signed, a repentant former doper-

    • fsethd says:

      Good words. Thank you.

    • paa says:

      Hesch isn’t a former doper. He’s a doper that got caught just like every douchebag doper; denied it, tried to fight it, lied about it, and only came clean because the scale of self interest weighed in favor of it.
      Just like every other doper, he maintains his doping never affected his results and that he won fair and square.

      Hesch has the same douchebaggery justifications that Leogrande lays out, that all dopers lay out until again, self-interest tips the scale.

      They are always “thankful for the second chance”. Let me put that through the b.s. translator: Thanks suckers, I get to continue doing what I want.

      Dopers must get a p.r. playbook wrapped with every vial of EPO, so they can dope, get caught, and continue doing whatever they were doing before they got caught- but “hey kids, don’t be like me….”

      It’s insidious. It’s completely rotten to the core of sport.

      Hesch can’t make a full time living as a doped runner anymore but I hear there’s an opening at SCC if he wants to take up cycling.

      • fsethd says:

        I don’t think team SCC will be in existence thirty days from now.

        There is a playbook, and a coach: Howard Jacobs, Esq.

  • Robert says:

    I’ll wait until I see what he tested positive for, before I crucify the guy. It could be something like cannabis. I met him before he got popped as a Pro and after he started racing again as an amateur. He did seem to be a different guy. And he was a talented rider. If you’re going to accept that Thurlow doesn’t dope, you have to at least consider, that maybe Kayle was clean when he came back to the sport. Thurlow can put out some insane power numbers. If he was in fact cheating, i’ll be as angry as anyone else here. But i’d like to know all the facts first. Doping as a Masters racer, is just stupid. I was disgusted, when I saw Richard Meeker at L’Etape California. I haven’t raced in a while, but I did start training again. When I read stories like this, it makes me wonder why. Let’s hope this wasn’t cheating and just an unfortunate accident. Because anything else is just depressing.

  • dan martin says:

    And the powers that be wonder why bike racing is declining…people go out and risk bone and skin and the ability to go to work on monday and pay the bills, all the while wondering if they got beat fair and square or by some doping doper. At least on strava they can flag the cheater they saw on the e-mtb taking their kom(for real). Fucking cheaters.

    • fsethd says:

      Yep. Drugs aren’t unique to biking, but unlike tennis and weightlifting, you don’t have to compete in a bike race to be a “bike racer.” Strava, grand fondues, Zwift, etc.

    • paa says:

      Strava isn’t “bike racing”. People that “compete” on Strava are diluted. Strava is a diary.

  • Jeff Dinkin says:

    I’m sure it’s all just a misunderstanding. Probably a tainted tattoo needle. 😉

  • UstaBeFit says:

    I always knew Kale was bad for you😉

  • Sibex Czar says:

    Might have said this before, but it was a Meeker post which someone forwarded to me “Hey! You got to read this!” in which I discovered your blog.

    The disturbing knowledge here is that you have put a financial stake in the game by offering primes, and it sucks to think that dopers are taking your money.

  • dangerstu says:

    I got a ration of shit for saying I race CX rather Crits the last time someone got popped for chemical cheating . But hey it is like shooting fish in a bucket, I wonder how many are on prescription testosterone, just because everyone else is.

  • Bud says:

    Truer words were never spoken. I just want to make one thing clear, not all tattooed freaks partake…… the tattoo needle is the only needle some of us know about.

    And yeah, I’ll keep on flailing away………without a win or wanky…..

    • fsethd says:

      It’s not about tattoos, that’s for sure. And I’ll take a clean racer no matter what color their skin is over. See ya at the races!

    • fsethd says:

      I yanked the “tattooed” reference. Point well taken.

  • RW White says:

    Amateur racing has been amateur doping for years. It’s been obvious to those who know the tell-tale signs. I’ve seen more than a few riders who could not lower their heart rates 5-6 minutes after the finish(ie: induced tachycardia), or riders who stage at the front early and moments before the gun still have that “pump” in their legs…Hmmm.. Or the famous rider I saw in a Manhattan beach side street who stepped out of his car, presumably having just driven from Thousand Oaks, with his quadriceps ready to explode.. Sad to say, Integrity is a ship that left port long ago.

    Now that a few years have passed, take a look back at Cancellara “motoring” away from the break to win the 2010 Paris-Roubaix. Watch the clip several times. If you can’t see it, well, God bless you… scroll into :42 sec..
    Oh Fabian…

    Amateur racing has been amateur doping for years. It’s been obvious to those who know the tell-tale signs. I’ve seen more than a few riders who could not lower their heart rates 5-6 minutes after the finish(ie: induced tachycardia), or riders who stage at the front early and moments before the gun still have that “pump” in their legs…Hmmm.. Or the famous rider I saw in a Manhattan beach side street who stepped out of his car with his Sad to say, Integrity is a ship that left port long ago.

    Now that a few years have passed, take a look back at Fabian “motoring” away from the break to win Paris-Roubaix in 2010. Watch the clip several times. If you can’t see it, well, God bless you… scroll into :42 sec..
    Oh Fabian…

    • fsethd says:

      No argument here …

    • shano92107 says:

      Ok so I am clearly missing something here – if it’s so obvious that the same people in these amateur races are winning juiced on a regular basis, why are people not reporting this? These are USAC sanctioned races – yes? They have a whistleblower hotline (supposedly.)
      Is there also a profamateur omerta in place here?

  • Tamar T. says:

    Rock Cycling, huh? Who would have thought that a team known for taking on dopers (Mancebo, anyone? Tyler Hamilton?) would have dopers on it? I am shocked. Figures the name Andreu shows up, as someone who didn’t call the authorities. Huh. Imagine that.

    • fsethd says:

      It’s almost like there’s a pattern but I just can’t figure out what it is.

  • paa says:

    Thank god for your blog. With the tragic loss of the great Steve Tilford, there are very few with the insight and naturally aspirated balls to call it like it is.

    • fsethd says:

      Thanks. Being compared to Steve is unwarranted high praise but I appreciate it nonetheless.

  • Jgt says:

    Did he ever comply with courts order to paying back attorney fees to Suzanne Sonye?

    • fsethd says:

      I heard that he did and it took years.

      • Rab says:

        Unfortunately he can’t her pay back for pretty effectively derailing her life for a while just because she had more balls than an entire masters field.
        Talk about a contrast of characters.

        • fsethd says:

          The irony is that Suzanne’s damages were much greater than whatever money he coughed up in nickels and dimes over a decade. She endured the kind of disruption and stress and anxiety that no one who hasn’t been targeted can understand.

          But it’s not a contrast of characters. She has one, he doesn’t.

  • Peter Flax says:

    I can testify that this rant is of extremely high quality.

  • kevin says:

    I call Bullshit. A sweeping generalization that all masters dope is just wrong and paints the majority of us in a bad light.

    I race masters in another jurisdiction and can do quite well on less than 12hrs of training /wk and discipline in the kitchen. The guys I race with are the same, the regulars are super strong but it’s easy to see the consistent buildup and performance. We can see when something is fishy.

    Are there people who do? Who cares. Are there mid pack guys willing to die for 20th. Again, who cares, they’ll move on willingly or be forced to soon enough.

    I’m not naive, I understand some will cross the line but it’s not only damaging to clean riders, it also comes off as sour grapes from those who don’t reach a high level for whatever reason.

    As a final word, I am in FULL agreement that grown men can be giving back to the sport rather than living out their narcissistic tendencies. Oh, great writing yet again too!

    • fsethd says:

      Where do I say that all masters dope?

    • fsethd says:

      And thanks for the props. I know all masters don’t dope. But doping is prevalent, and it is most common amongst the pack fodder, simply because there are more of them.

  • Watch the final 1 minute of this clip and you will be well convinced that someone is on the juice. And this is in a Pro 1/2 race.

    • fsethd says:

      Totally normal. 40+ dude answers every move, pulls last lap, rides everyone off his wheel, attacks from the front and almost wins. What’s your point?

  • senna65 says:

    “Masters” (middle age recreational bike riders) doping is horribly weak, but not too surprising in this pharma and fake youth culture we’re living in. These are the same dudes who buy their wives/”girlfriends” fake boobs and face lifts. The baby boomers aren’t aging gracefully and the generation behind them even worse. The generation who won WWII and put a man on the moon seem content to get off the planet with a bit more class.

  • Lare Wardrop says:

    I can speak only for myself I got into bike racing because I was hurting from running
    I like bike racing I have gone to masters nationals in Utah and got my son in to racing also
    He did jr. National in Tahoe. I would be surprised if all masters racers did drugs
    I think you are blowing it out of proportion

    • fsethd says:

      All masters don’t dope. I’ve never said that they do. But it is commonplace, and the greatest use is not among the top tier but among the anonymous hackers.

      • Lare Wardrop says:

        I would like to think you could give some of us a chance.
        Last year at UCLA RR You got dropped but this year you
        did not. So all I’m saying is I would be nice if your come
        from was not to attack some riders that are really trying.
        I would hate to think that if I ever got a top five in a crit
        which 12th out of 90 is my best in 45+ you would think I
        was a dopper. All those hill repeats with Strickler really hurt
        I do really enjoy your blog
        Your also a nice guy. I think we need to try and keep or local
        Crits going and RR I didn’t get my son in to just to watch it die out
        Anyway hope to see you at the races

        • fsethd says:

          I got dropped on the last lap but thanks for noticing. Everyone who races tries. If they do more than “their” type of event they also get dropped. I would think you were a doper if you tested positive for a banned substance. Otherwise, I rarely think about it.

          However, the nature of the sport today, thanks to Meeker, LeoGrande, and the whole gaggle of sanctioned masters on the USADA list, is that you race under a cloud of suspicion. There is always someone who will claim you doped.

          Thanks for the kind words. My concern is also keeping racing going. But it’s hard to see how that can happen when USAC can’t ban a guy like Doyle for life, and a guy like LeoGrande can pull a walk-off positive that taints us all.

  • Lare Wardrop says:

    For Doyle if he was any kind of a man he would have said sorry
    I Fuked up and done it the race.
    I know I have crashed and so has my son it does happen but not like what he did.

    • fsethd says:

      Yes, if he had any decency, which he doesn’t, he would have apologized. An earlier poster followed it up with exactly the kind of thing that any decent person should have done.

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